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0:01 · Bada bing, bada boom.

0:03 · June 10th, 2022, Karen Reed is charged with murder. She is accused of allegedly killing her Boston cop boyfriend, John O'Keefe.

0:12 · Karen, state police. We have a search warrant.

0:16 · My pajamas. I don't even have shoes on. I'm just charged with seconddegree murder now.

0:20 · That's correct.

0:24 · Step inside.

0:28 · She was accused of running him over, leaving him for dead in the snow outside of another Boston cop's house. Is that correct? That's correct.

0:38 · For the past 3 years, Karen Reed has gone through a murder trial, a second murder trial, and finally June 18th, 2025, she is acquitted of murder. Is that correct?

0:51 · That's correct.

0:52 · 003 not guilty. [cheering] And this is her first formal sitdown interview since the acquitt. Welcome to Rotten Mango, Karen.

1:07 · Hi, Stephanie.

1:09 · You were facing life in prison.

1:11 · Yes.

1:12 · June 18th, you get acquitted. What is that feeling in a way that's comparable to something someone watching can understand?

1:21 · It's probably the opposite of what someone watching would assume. I felt I am still not quite living in in a quiddle world. I thought I would just bounce back like on a spring. [music] It it hasn't it hasn't been it hasn't been that way. Um, I don't quite understand why. I'm trying to understand why. I I haven't felt more celebratory.

2:01 · And what I think is that I lived with some very singular emotions, fright, anger, and anxiety. It was very intense. Every waking hour, every hour, I thought about my freedom and if I could lose it. Um, and those feelings just don't disappear when a jury foreman says not guilty. I mean there is of course relief but I don't just wake up the next day and I'm living the life I lived 5 years ago.

2:47 · I I felt my grief was being replaced with anger that was then driving this this adrenaline. And [music] um I woke up every day with a real purpose. And I was appreciative that I was free to pursue this purpose. And then all of a sudden the purpose is gone thankfully. But I I don't have a routine to go back to. It's not there anymore.

3:17 · I don't have a job. I don't have a home anymore. And um I it I'm just kind of in no man's land. And I still have moments every day, very brief, like a nanocond where I think of something. I I need to tell Liza little this for for this witness or um if if if God forbid I'm ever convicted, I need to make sure I tell my mother this or it it it it's over the feeling as soon as it starts.

3:52 · But there's definitely some synapses in my head that are still thinking trial hasn't happened yet. It's it's like when you get ready for the holidays and then you think, wait a minute, did Christmas already happen? It was all this anticipation and then it's over in in in a couple hours and you unwrap presents and it it feels like that like I have to ask myself, wait a minute, it's over, right? It happened. I don't need to worry about this anymore. But there's this big void in my body and in my mind that and physically and what I was doing every day that I don't quite know how to fill.

4:23 · It's I just feel like a fish out of water. It's weird. I mean, that is something I was going to ask. It's been like 6 plus months since the aqu quiddle.

4:36 · Obviously, you don't want to go back to trial, but every day you have to get dressed. You have a mission. There's urgency. Was there like a wave of emotions that hit you after the aquitt that maybe you were suppressing during the trial?

4:48 · It the aqu quiddle feels like 3 years ago. When you say 6 months, it's like, oh my god, is it only been 6 months? I already feel like it's been many seasons and many things since then. I've had such an amazing network of support, more than anyone could ever ask that could ever ask for in this circumstance.

5:11 · Emotionally, when I needed to let things out, I was I had people around me that I I could lean on. Um, it was more physically that I I I didn't have the an physical appetite. I didn't have the physical energy I had during trial. I've felt just kind of lackluster and just relaxed, but not not this uh drive.

5:39 · Like I feel like I've lost some of this this drive. And it it feels like it was just a prolonged um a prolonged response to what the government did to me that I've had these endorphins pushing me, getting me out of bed, keeping me up, working on witness prep during trial and motions and in between trials. Um, and then it just shuts off.

6:04 · It was like this [music] this supply I had that never just never ended for 4 years and now it's it's gone. So, I feel physically um I'm paying for it. Mhm.

6:16 · Now, like I I've got to relearn how to get a regimen and how to source energy and and drive every day.

6:28 · Maybe hopefully not ever like it needed to be before June 18th, but some kind of even keel. I haven't found that yet.

6:38 · Do you like wake up in the morning ever like, "Oh my god, I'm late to court." And then it's like, "Okay, I don't have trial. like I'm free.

6:45 · I think I would if I were living I live with my parents most of the time. So I'm not in the environs that I was in during court. But if I if I stayed at the Marriott in the seapport the residents in I may I may feel that way. I do get those moments of something that I want I want to tell one of the lawyers I want to remember like oh the these two these two dots connect and then I realize no I we don't need to know those dots connect anymore. We already addressed it. Thank God I I don't wake up thinking I've I've got to get to G.

7:12 · I wake up very feeling very fortunate that I'm not court ordered to be anywhere anymore. It's it's very it's very frightening to know you are court ordered. This is not a job or or school where you should be there. It's best that you're there, but no one's going to come arrest you if you don't go. And this is two trials plus 100 pre-trial hearings that I am court ordered.

7:41 · It doesn't matter how I feel physically or or mentally, I have to be there and I have to be there sharp because I'm a member of this team. Um, so it is it's amazing waking up knowing no one is going to force me to be anywhere today.

8:00 · What did you do the first 24 hours though after the like 24 hours? What was that like?

8:07 · The first 24 hours. Two. What say is the defendant at the bar not guilty or guilty?

8:14 · Not guilty.

8:31 · Defense of operative on one year probation.

8:54 · [music] Karen, what is life going to be like for you now? [cheering] [music] I spent the the whole ride back to the hotel. [music] We were hearing from people at the hotel that the press and the neighborhood uh were already starting to gather in the parking lot. The the hotel we stayed at was like a a boutique style residence in in a very lovely neighborhood in Seapport of Boston called Fort Point.

9:41 · And the the local businesses, the restaurants, there was a residential building just across the street from us.

9:50 · It was almost the size of an alley, a very narrow street. And coincidentally, when I was in my 20s, I lived in that building. When we came back from the hotel, [music] um, we tried to lose the press a few times and I think we ended up going in a side alley door to the hotel, but I went to my room. David's room was below me and I looked across the the alley and there were residents in the apartment building next door [music] that had put congratulatory signs in their windows.

10:18 · Somebody put something with Yanetti's name. They must have known David cuz it was only Well, I guess Allan was up in a corner as well, but it was a window directly. David was below me. It was right right adjacent to David's room, but FKR or Congrats Yianetti. Um, uh, so there were people that we had met in the neighborhood that were congregating. Um, a restaurant nearby I had orchestrated with them.

10:43 · I didn't make any plans until I was acquitted because there was there was no way I was going to I was going to [music] set up any kind of dinner before I actually knew I was going to need that dinner. So, I called the restaurant in the seapport. Um they gave us a private room. We had been there a few times during trial and they were amazing. No one knew we were there. Um and it was my immediate family, my cousins who I'm particularly close to and my legal team and my local lawyers brought their families.

11:13 · And that was a very long three-hour journey. It was very um it was very overwhelming. Uh I my phone was blowing up. I wanted to decompress with my parents. [music] I I barely even got to speak to them and the waiters coming over and asking if I wanted to do all cart desserts and I'm like I just really want to go back to the hotel and lay on [music] my bed. We were getting requests for Good Morning America and the Today Show and People magazine. I mean, it was all rushing.

11:42 · It it was just flooding in and I didn't like I don't want to do any of this. I need a beat and I I need to figure out how I'm going to tackle all the media. Um I was very very overwhelmed. Um [music] we all went back to the hotel. All the families, my parents came back. Um obviously all the lawyers were still in town. [music] The following day um I think Liza might have been the first to leave. David David was leaving. Bob was leaving.

12:11 · My parents slept in the morning and Allan and I said, "I just want to have a day." He was he was leaving the this the second day, 2 days after the verdict. and we just walked around, went to our haunts that we ate at during trial and it's like we can finally I'm going to walk in with Allan and have a meal that I've never had with him without this albatross around my neck.

12:34 · I've never eaten a meal or had a bowl of chowder with any of these people um as a as a free woman and [music] um it was a really sunny warm day and I ran into someone that I used to work with at Fidelity that I hadn't seen in a long time. Um, uh, it was just it I felt like I was in a dream, though.

12:56 · I wouldn't say it was like the happiest day of my life. It It still hadn't like hit me yet. It just felt surreal and I felt I felt sad like where do So, I'm going to go back to the hotel, pack up pack up my things, and then where do I go?

13:14 · Um, and everyone else is going, you know, my friends are going to travel back and go back to work and the lawyers are going to go to other projects and um, you know, even my parents will go back to their routine and my siblings um, and it's just where do I go? I was not planning with 100% certainty I would be here today. It's weird to live a day that you never planned on.

13:47 · I never made a plan for June 19th or 20th or the 21st because I didn't want to jinx anything and I didn't know that I'd be there. I didn't even book a dentist appointment.

14:01 · So, it's all of a sudden now I've got nothing. [music] And um just very surreal is the best word I can think to describe it. Is it like someone just comes and like shakes your snow globe and then leaves?

14:14 · Yeah.

14:14 · Yeah. And then everything just settles and um and it just gets like eerily eerily quiet like it does after a snowstorm before the plows come through. It's just dark and silent and [music] um and it's it's still like feels like that. It's getting it. I'm starting to feel my way around like defining what my life is going to be. But um it's getting it's getting easier.

14:42 · But I do feel I've had this delayed um re this delayed reaction to the persecution. Not delayed reaction to the acquitt. I'm I'm finally like um reacting to this this horrible thing that happened to me and I had to swallow it and and and and roll with it. And now I'm digesting it.

15:21 · Like I I swallowed something horrible and it's just sat in my body and now I'm finally breaking it down. I I feel like it's I'm having to address things that I swept under the carpet. Um like emotionally.

15:37 · Yeah.

15:37 · Um, it's that you you just your body kicks into this fight or flight. And I'm my body is very good. My mind is very good at kicking into fight. I work very well under stress and pressure and it got even better. That that that characteristic got refined during the last four years.

16:03 · Um, but you can't do that to your body and to your mind [music] without paying the piper eventually. And that's I I feel like I've had to do that.

16:16 · Have you ever like dealt with depression during the trial even now?

16:21 · No, I've never really dealt with it ever.

16:24 · Um, I I I don't know if it's depression or if it's like PTSD. Um but no I didn't feel I I was angry most of the time angry and I felt very

16:42 · lucky that it's a disservice to the people around me who are the most amazing people anyone could ask for and I'm not inclined to depression so I'm not surprised I I mean I I went through a normal grieving process. Um, but I I didn't feel down that I had to sell my house and everything in it that I [music] cured myself.

17:09 · I I felt, you know, and I I had a conversation with Allan that don't look at it as you the government is robbing you of this.

17:23 · like they they're using your taxes to prosecute you and you're having to go through any every asset and liquidate it. Um, look at it as an investment you made before you ever knew you'd be in this situation and now it's paying off when you need it and you're going to use this house to save your life. And you know, it was I get a lot of words of wisdom but they don't all resonate and that did.

17:48 · Um, but I think I I I I really just feel that I've I've been running on endorphins that are now the spigot just shut off and [music] I've got to in inspire myself in ways like everybody else wakes up and I look at everyone around me like you're get up and live lives and um find inspiration or physically and mentally and I just have to do that like a normal person now like re retrain it.

18:21 · Yeah, there's actually some people perhaps a lot of people out there that think you are sitting on a beach, you are cashing in on a book deal, a documentary deal, like they think that you are good, you're set, you're enjoying your life. Is that what it really is like? So, we have announced that we're working with a pub a publisher um this is Luke Jenklo and a a producer in Los Angeles that's Julie Yorn on the movie and TV side of things.

18:54 · So, I've only announced that I have agents and I have these producers um helping me to to sell this.

19:03 · I have made nothing on the documentary.

19:06 · In fact, I lost trying to fight for a piece of the proceeds from the documentary. I went into the documentary thinking um that there was the Son of Sam law uh in Massachusetts which prevents defendants from profiting. You know, you you can't commit a crime and then write a book from prison and send your kids to college on the on the back of this crime. There is no son of Sam law in Massachusetts, which we found out in the middle of making this deal with the documentaries, which was great.

19:36 · So, I can get paid at any point in this legal process, even if I were convicted. Um, we were not paid. I was not paid. No member of my team was paid um anything from the documentary.

19:52 · It was very uh legally involved. Um, I I I believe I was uh mis misled and taken advantage of and we gave the documentarian our all. Um, I did not see the documentary. I watched the end of the final episode. I don't know if there are four or five. David, several people told me there was a nice moment with David and me at the end of the last episode.

20:22 · So, I did watch that and I liked it. Um, and then I watched Dave and I said goodbye at the hotel and then the documentary ended with me in my basement at the house I no longer live in with all the legal boxes. Um, because the documentary ended at the mistrial.

20:39 · So, I think she was trying to show here I am just back stuck at stuck at go again with our paper shredder and our printers and um and I I think I was like vacuuming the floor and I I I was like, "All right, I've I've seen enough." People close to me who watched the documentary said based on what I had predicted it would be, it was not that.

20:58 · And I thought, um, this documentary experience has not been fun. It was incredibly invasive, which I I knew it would be, but we still gave them more access than they could have ever hoped for. And she, the documentarian, I feel, went out of her way to excise us from enjoying not one dime um of these of of the proceeds. And based on what little I saw and what I've heard of the product, um I I don't need your money. You you know what you did.

21:30 · You know what we gave you every day. My family, you were in our living quarters. You were on the in the SUV with us every day. You know what we gave you and you know what kind of story you had from us and you used us. Um you know you did. Um and I wish just never to cross paths with you again. Um, I will tell my story with more control.

22:02 · Uh, we don't have a book deal. Uh, I think that Allan and I will be co-authors on a book. There will be no book written by someone even with just some creative input by me. It will be written by probably three people. A professional and then Allan. Allan and I will will be helping to tell the story. So, I I want this to be a story about corruption.

22:27 · I want to have some impact on the state where I've lived most of my life and where my family's from and where we battled this. I want to make an impact on what people think about politics, about the government, about the dangers of a one party political system, which is what Massachusetts is. It's not about liberal or conservative.

22:54 · It's about being one party from the founding of that government with no competition, no checks and balances. It becomes almost anarchy like like it is now. Uh we've got a district attorney who has a war chest despite not having any opposition.

23:18 · It's it's dangerous and I believe that is why I got where I was and why I got into this position and why until it changes there there will be other Karen Reeds. You may not hear about them.

23:29 · These these stories Sandra Burchmore it's getting exposed other people are exposing it as well. That's what this story will be. Okay.

23:37 · And if I have to write it myself then I'll write it myself. Even on that note I do feel like I've heard a lot about you. I've heard a lot of clips of you.

23:46 · I've watched the whole documentary series Body in the Snow and I feel like you're very different from that, you know, the way that you're presented in the documentary and then versus like when you walked in. I've gotten very good and I was not good at this in my prior life. I've gotten very good at controlling what I let upset me because so much has been taken from my control with a judge, with a district attorney, with the state police. I've been arrested. I've had um my home two years later searched for electronics.

24:16 · Once someone comes in your home, you have no safe place anywhere. They've been in my parents' home. They've been in my house three times. So, I've had to learn to control what I can control, which means not falling down a rabbit hole on Twitter, not reading comments on a [music] on a video on YouTube. And I knew I had an idea where this documentary was going before it came out.

24:43 · We ended the relationship with Terry the documentarian on a very bad note over money. Of course, I had former students from Bentley. I had former colleagues. I had friends um that traveled on their dime to interview for this documentary. These are people who knew me [music] in all sorts of facets of life that I was then told those interviews didn't make it in.

25:10 · They didn't make it in. Yeah.

25:11 · But but John's sister-in-law, who to the best of my knowledge, and to everyone's knowledge, I I would guess knows they didn't have the tightest relationship.

25:23 · Um uh or or a friend of his. There were there's been two friends of his I have never met. I was with John nearly every day for two years. I had dated him 20 years before that. And there's some guy and and an old girlfriend who I never met. This is the closest you could find to John. People who never saw John and me interact. And yet I gave you I gave you friends. I gave you people from my parish, students, colleagues, and none of it made it in.

25:53 · So when the docu documentary um the documentary came out and I can't even remember when that was um I I made a concerted effort. I will not watch that.

26:05 · I what is the point to get upset because I know what didn't make it in. And people come up to me all the time that I saw the docu um the documentary. It was [snorts] wow it what a story it told and I I can't believe what you went through. Um, but my family and friends that saw it, no one's no one's raved about it because they don't feel it portrayed me.

26:28 · Um, but I wasn't I'm not surprised I was cast in a light that is not realistic.

26:36 · Yeah.

26:44 · [music] during our four-part series on [music] Karen Reed's case. I mean, that's over like 10 hours long. Just with the sheer amount of people that were involved, we did have to resort to coming up with nicknames or monikers. some of our own creation, some that we've adopted from social media discourse. [music] And out of just pure habit and pure personal style, I might still be referring to some of these people with that nickname.

27:27 · Um, we called Brian Higgins, Brian Haha Higgins, Michael Proctor, Michael Nudes Proctor. Um, that was literally just so people could have an idea of who we're talking about when we mention a name. If I do that, that is not Karen poking fun at anyone. I honestly should probably prefer that I don't use these nicknames, but I probably will throughout this episode. And on top of that, another disclaimer is Karen is right now involved in multiple civil lawsuits involving a ton of different people. So there might be some questions that she cannot answer legally, and that's just for legal purposes.

27:58 · So with that being said, what do you think happened to John O'Keefe? John O'Keefe entered the garage or the house at 34 Fair View [music] and sooner, much sooner than later, met his demise.

28:17 · Based on his injuries, it looks to me like [music] he got into a fight and fell backwards. There was not a single pathologist in either trial that didn't say the mortal wound came from falling backwards and hitting his head. That was that was agreed on. He had bruises on his hands. Uh the prosecution tried to say that those came from IVs, but I've had many IVs. I've had them in my hands and my hands never looked like that. But I dropped him off. He went up to the breezeway and 6:00 a.m.

28:49 · I find him in a heap missing his hat, missing his shoe, and laying there with a piece of glass in his face. So someone [music] in that house killed John O'Keefe. The Alberts have stated that they were asleep and there's footage of you. There's body cam footage of you like screaming, dash cam footage. How loud were you screaming? Cuz there's all these comments about, oh, the wind, the blizzard.

29:26 · I've done research and I my understanding is that the snow can muffle sounds. I don't need to wonder Mhm.

29:39 · if Brian Albert and Nicole Albert were awake. According to the Commonwealth's own witness, mine as well, but theirs as well, Ian Whiffin, Nicole Albert at 500 a.m. has an answered phone call from Jen McCabe. Answered and deleted. Furthermore, Nicole Albert at 6:07 a.m.

30:06 · and 6:08 a.m. has two more phone calls, each lasting about 7 seconds, from Jen McCabe, answered and deleted. [music] This is not conjecture. This is not my theory. This is in the data. Pour over my phone records. By the way, I had no deleted calls, no deleted Google searches. I actually didn't have any Google searches at all.

30:32 · But I know from the data, according to the data, unless the data is wrong, and this is Celbrite that's used was just used to help convict Brian Walsh of murdering his wife. The same celebrate used by law enforcement globally is telling me that Nicole Albert's phone answered a call from her sister at 5:00 a.m. and then two more at 6:00 a.m. So that would lead me to assume that Nicole Albert was awake.

31:06 · Have you guys ever tried to recreate the quote unquote butt dials?

31:12 · [laughter] No, because it's not possible.

31:16 · It's it's it's it's not possible. I have called people and we jokingly, my friends and I and my family and I, we say butt dial when we mean like I may be scrolling through my call log. Yeah.

31:28 · And I accidentally activate that name and it calls. Or um someone sent me their number on Instagram and I went to press it down and copy it so then I could save it in my contacts and it called them. and then I'll say, "Haha, butt dial." Yeah. But it wasn't an actual accidental phone call made while the phone was completely inert. That's what they're saying butt dials are.

31:52 · Um, even if you're you're able to inadvertently make a phone call, they're all doing it in the middle of the night. All of them. Higgins is saying he made a butt dial. Brian Albert is saying it was a butt dial.

32:04 · Well, it's kind of like a butt dial.

32:08 · I believe I used the word butt dials. Well, I used a phrase that people commonly used as a butt dial.

32:16 · Not just a butt dial, but a butt a butt answer and a butt hangup on both ends.

32:22 · So, you're saying you accidentally called him, he accidentally answered, he accidentally hung up, and then you accidentally hung up. Jen McCabe said the slew of phone calls to John at quarter of 1, between 12:30 and 1:00, she had over a dozen phone calls to John. She's claiming those were all butt dials. What are the chances these people who were together all night are engaging in, if you count them, somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 but butt phone actions.

32:55 · Answering, dialing, hanging up. They appear they meaning the Alberts, Mabes and Higgins appear to have kept kept it simple and agreed to several mantras and just those mantras. One of them was butt dials and the other I don't recall or not that I recall.

33:23 · I don't remember.

33:24 · I don't I don't recall.

33:26 · I don't [music] remember. I don't I don't I don't recall my interview.

33:31 · I don't recall.

33:32 · I do not recall having I don't recall.

33:35 · I don't remember.

33:36 · I don't remember if I was T.

33:38 · If they were coached, it was smart. Keep it simple. Um because when they start to add details to their renditions of what happened that night, they're completely inconsistent. Mhm.

33:52 · Um Brian Brian Higgins uh said his Jeep was parked in front of the house. He backed it up. He had a plow. He went into great detail and he um he he jokingly plowed some snow for Brian and Nicole to pull in and then Matt and Jen and then he he veed out and pulled in front of the house by the mailbox. Yet Jen McCabe didn't see the car and she was apparently on night watch at the front door and never saw a Jeep. a Jeep with a plow, which is is something memorable.

34:22 · Um Ryan Nagel, Ricky Danton, and Heather Maxon were behind me. They never saw the Jeep. So, my point being their group thought is is simple, but as soon as you require details from these people, um their their stories their stories are all over the place.

34:40 · Do you think Chloe the Albert's German Shepherd is still alive? This is the question I get asked the most is what happened to the dog. And I I realize I do not have a dog. Um [music] I realize this is where society is is we a lot of us love dogs more than we love people or just as much. But I get this this answer this this question constantly.

35:03 · I have no idea uh I what happened to Chloe.

35:08 · Based on what I know, I would I would guess the dog is dead. Um, I don't believe it's the dog they claim it is up in New Hampshire. Um, we asked for proof and all they gave was was animal control vaccination records that I can literally go to go to animal control and get a copy of the vaccination records. And this woman in New Hampshire who we have no address, no phone call, uh, no phone number for, she's claiming this is the dog, this is his this was his birthday and this this is his vaccination. Well, anybody can get that.

35:39 · At what point in the investigation did you feel like, okay, this is not an investigation into a tragic accident? I'm being framed. Like, what is there a moment, a specific moment it hits you? So, they had my phone in my car um within a half hour of coming to my parents house. So, they left my parents at 4:15 on January 29th.

36:02 · They took my phone and they took the car. Um I was hoping desperately, this is a case of they've got the wrong guy. I'm arrested on February 1st. [music] I spend the night in a holding cell and then I'm arraigned the next morning.

36:30 · I hadn't met in person David Yianetti, but I had already engaged with him on January 29th. He comes to the holding cell um at the courthouse in Stoton and he has one copy of the police report that Michael Michael Proctor authored. He's holding the police report now.

36:48 · They're already calling my case at 9:00 a.m. It's like 9:10 and I don't know what I'm walking into. I don't know what they have against me. I don't know anything. David is holding the police report and we're reading it together.

37:00 · They only gave him one copy. So, his hands between the bars. I'm leaning in and we're reading it quick. I don't know how I had the focus to even comprehend and read at that moment. It was like just another fight or flight that focus. Karen, this is about to be read in front of a courtroom filled with people. The first thing that stood out to me was it said they arrived at my parents house.

37:24 · Proctor and Bnik arrived at my parents house at 4:30 p.m. and left at 5:30 p.m. And I knew right away that was wrong.

37:33 · I've lived in New England most of my life. 5:30 in the middle of January is pitch black outside. 4:30 p.m. is almost pitch black outside. And I knew when they left my house, my parents house, it was still somewhat light outside because I remember watching the flatbed with my truck go by the front of the go by the front window. Um, I knew they had gotten to the house around 3:00 and I knew they weren't there for 2 and 1/2 hours.

37:57 · So, I thought, well, maybe this is how police reports are written initially in a cursory fashion that they're approximate times and then we can tighten timelines later. But that always bothered me. And then every affidavit that was accompanying every seizure of evidence after that kept saying the same thing that on January 29th we we went to the house indictment at 4:30 we left at 5:30. So that was the first time I thought all right we're dealing with very sloppy imprecise police.

38:25 · That was my first inkling that this isn't completely ticked and tied. After I was released from the arraignment on February 2nd, that evening, David called me. David Yianetti called me and said he had gotten an anonymous phone call from someone saying, "You need to pay attention to who lived in the house, who lives in the house." I had not even thought about the Alberts.

38:51 · Um I I not one way or the other, just that I knew that was their house and they had been with us the night before and I had met them for the first time a week before that. Um so it was very early on. I've been lucky that very early on and at regular intervals since I have been given gifts of information that helped buoy me.

39:14 · Yeah, I I can't tell you hearing that information from David and and so of course as soon as David says this anonymous caller says look at the owner of the house, I start googling Brian Albert and it's within seconds I find a Google video of him in a boxing ring be beating people up and and he looks I I've met him but I haven't paid much attention to him but he sounds gruff and he's he's walking into

39:44 · some drug bust with some kind of shield and weapons and and he just he looked like a tough mean guy. Mind you though, at this time I didn't know John's injuries in detail. When I found him, he had a cut on his on his nose on his left side and he had a cut um above his right eye. He had blood coming out of his nose and his eyes were like eggs, but I didn't know if he had um broken ribs or his femur was sticking out of his body.

40:14 · I mean, it didn't seem to be, but I didn't know if he had internal bleeding. I didn't [snorts] I I didn't know until I saw the hospital photos in May how obvious it was that this body was not hit by a car or anything like a car. and this body looks like it was beaten up. Um, so it's it was every couple months.

40:38 · So we got that tip. Um, we didn't get much. March and April of 2022 were very tough. I John was in my life so much so thickly and then he wasn't anymore. It was the only relationship I've had and I've had many that I mean I'm 45 and I've been dating since I was a teenager that ended with such finality.

41:04 · I can't call him when I'm out in Boston at 1:00 a.m. when the bar closes like I did when I was in my 20s. Um I I can't miss him in a few weeks and say just thinking of you or can I drop by and see you. Um, I've never been forced to deal with such finality. I've never had a death that that close to me. So, March and April were difficult. There just wasn't anything going on. We we weren't getting any police reports.

41:33 · I still didn't know what what they were using to charge me. And it was in May that they finally released the photos that were taken of him at the hospital and then the autopsy with two two different events. And I it was very obvious to me this this this is not what they're they're claiming. There's there's a cracked tail light on my car and John is pristine pristine from the neck down with the exception of his right arm.

42:04 · Um and coupling that and David continued to get this anonymous tip to look at Brian Albert. Um, coupling those together, it it it it gave me hope that I I may be able to figure out what happened.

42:23 · What happened?

42:24 · I we saw the footage of the second arrest, which was probably one of the more shocking pieces of footage connected to your case. You had no idea that they were coming cuz you're just in short pajamas and you're begging to change before they take you in. And then eventually they mock you because you beg to change and they're like, "Look at how much she cares about being on TV." Have you seen the footage? I have seen stills of it, but I've steered clear. It is very difficult for me. And I've warned my parents not to.

42:52 · Um I I think my dad just watches everything, but I've warned them not to.

42:59 · I'm getting charged with seconddegree murder now.

43:01 · That's correct.

43:02 · I have no idea what this is about now.

43:04 · This is about the same exact incident.

43:05 · Okay. Where's the medication?

43:06 · Can I use the ladies room?

43:08 · I understand. We're going to get call your parents and they can come over and retrieve any item you need or want.

43:13 · Yep.

43:13 · I can't put Hold on. Hold on.

43:16 · What about the shoe wear? What kind of footwear do you want?

43:19 · Anything. But can I these are I I don't even have underwear. Can I put pants on?

43:23 · And what again? We your pants and come over here and retrieve anything.

43:26 · We'll get that medication for you. And can I put pants on, please?

43:30 · Can you just step over side, please?

43:32 · Where are your pants?

43:33 · I'm at the foot of my bed. Can I just have a pair of shoes? We'll go get those. And in the meantime, let's follow you. Follow this trooper right here. All right.

43:40 · But where can I put my pants on?

43:42 · At the barracks.

43:43 · Can I put them on before I go out of my house, please?

43:46 · Ma'am, that's not part of our procedure.

43:47 · Once I put my pajamas, you have a chance to change the barracks. Have a seat there for me. Then you got to put that corn double lock just like see how crazy she came around. She's more concerned what she looks like on TV.

44:13 · Yeah, I'm still recording just to let you know.

44:16 · Okay, I have seen the footage from my own backyard camera after I was arrested the first time and once I started to figure out what was happening, I was frightened. I was frightened about who is on the other side, who is on the law enforcement side that is is trying to pin this on me and who killed John that could be in my backyard right now.

44:38 · And then I learned about Sander Birmore.

44:41 · I did worry, I live alone. I'm like a sitting duck.

44:45 · Will I be hanging from a door a do in my house? Yeah.

44:50 · And they could easily explain it as guilt, depression over what had happened and she just gave up. So the first 6 months of 2022 were difficult. I had not even been explained [music] to the concept of an upcharge.

45:09 · My understanding was you get indicted on what you were charged for. I didn't realize that the district attorney can present anything he wants to the grand jury and they can charge me with anything. They could have charged me with also breaking into the Albert's house and stealing their TV set while I was parked outside. I didn't realize that and shame on me um that I I didn't learn that. I was trying to learn as much as I could during these months.

45:37 · I was reading a book every couple days just about the criminal justice system and defending yourself and how this works. But June 9th, I was home alone like I was most days. I would do yard work. I'd put headphones in. I'd wait for one of the lawyers to call. Um I had been mowing the lawn. I hadn't showered yet.

45:59 · I was wearing boxers and I actually just had a a tank top on. didn't have any underwear on and um I came in from doing yard work and I decided I was going to cook for myself. I mean this was my catharsis. I would go outside. I tried to get sun. I did a lot of ask my neighbors. I was out in my yard every day just trying to sweat at least physically tire myself out so I could sleep at night. Um and I was cooking. I was trying to eat well.

46:27 · So I was making a pot of chili. Um I was finishing everything up. I had I had music on and [music] all of a sudden I hear voices and I lower the music. I go to the front door and I my windows are open. My storm door is closed but the screen is up and I heard a voice say, "Let's do this in the back. There's cameras out front." I had a very clear, it wasn't a Ring doorbell. It was a It was a higherend private security system, but there was a very visible camera over the front door.

46:58 · But I also had them 360 around my whole property. So I heard that voice. Let's do this around back. There's cameras out here.

47:08 · I I see two cops. Um I couldn't make out who they were, but I could see them walking around by the garage of my property, which kind of requires you to go down into the driveway. The garage sits under the house, and then up a hill into my backyard. So, I start shaking. I look out a window. I see there's there's a a Mansfield, the town I lived in, Mansfield, Massachusetts, cruiser, and then I think uh two unmarked cars. Maybe there was a third.

47:39 · And I thought that something's happening. The first person I see, now I'm looking out the back window. I'm reaching for my cell phone. I see Michael Proctor in plain clothes walking by himself. Now he's he's soon to be followed by Buchnik and another state trooper, I believe, and a Mansfield cop. I think the state police have to call in local assist whenever they're in a different jurisdiction.

48:08 · Oh, she's out back outside.

48:10 · Yeah, there's somebody in the house.

48:15 · Yeah.

48:15 · For a split second, I thought Michael Proctor was there to hurt me. I I had no idea. Why is he here? Why is he in plain clothes?

48:28 · Why is he at my back door, which is almost in the woods? There's no inviting path to my back door. You You would have no reason to go looking for my back door. I called David Yianetti and it's just like a dream where you just can't dial the number or you're trying to text and you you can't get the text right and it's like that in real life like your hands are shaking and you I think I dialed his number like three or four times before I finally was able to dial it correctly.

48:59 · Um and I said, "David, Proctor's here. There's police here." I I don't know what they're doing. And I can't remember if David told me that he had just gotten a phone call that I was indicted or if he guessed you you they may have just indicted you. I knew that they were close to um I was hearing through the grapevine that people were testifying.

49:25 · Um so I can't remember exactly what David said to me. I then I think I either called my dad. I think I called my dad [music] um and I said, "Daddy, I think I'm getting arrested again." And my poor dad, he I know that was the worst one of the worst moments of this whole thing [music] cuz we were just completely bewildered.

49:43 · What now?

49:45 · Um, so I take the phone. It's still dialed in. I'm connected to David.

49:51 · I'm in my pajamas. I don't even have shoes on. I'm charged with seconddegree murder now.

49:56 · That's correct.

49:57 · Homicide and leaving the scene causing death.

50:00 · I walk outside. One of the first thing that happens, Proctor is reading me, he's reading me my rights and he's telling me that I've been charged with murder. And Bcnik, in the middle of all this, I'm I'm trying to I'm on sensory overload, but I'm trying to absorb what's going on. Bnik takes my cell phone and goes, I'll be taking that and he puts the cell phone still connected to David Yianetti in his in his in his pocket. There is no search warrant for that phone. That is not the phone I had on January 29th.

50:31 · They already have that phone. So, they did for some period of time have my replacement cell phone and who knows who knows what they did with it. I know when they took it, there was an active line open to David Yianetti.

50:47 · So, I know when BUnick took the phone, there was at least an open line. So, while Proctor's reading this to me, the indictment and my rights, he's he starts pinning my arms behind my back, and I'm trying to move away from him. Uh because I still don't understand.

51:04 · I've done everything. I'm I've shown up at every hearing. I'm at my house. I'm I' I haven't broken the law. I haven't driven. Why am I being arrested? I did hear the word murder. So, there's there's gears grinding in my head that something something's gotten worse here. So, he's trying to pin my arms and cuff me and I'm trying to move away from him.

51:24 · And at the same time, I'm saying to him, "Now, I haven't heard the tape, but my recollection is I'm saying to him, can I please have some clothes? I don't I'm not even wearing underwear. I've had a colosttomy bag at four different periods in my life. So, leaving anywhere without pants or underwear or certain materials that I need is of the utmost embarrassment. And Proctor knows this.

51:52 · He said I I did see a clip of him saying she's worried what cuz I think it was on TV.

51:59 · Yes.

51:59 · He said she's worried what she looks like for the cameras. All she can think about is the cameras.

52:03 · He says, "You see how crazy she is? She is more concerned about how she looks on TV."

52:09 · See how crazy she put the cameras on. She's more concerned what she looks like on TV.

52:14 · Yeah.

52:15 · more of Proctor misrepresenting everything including that. First of all, the only reason cameras were there is because the district attorney or the state police called cameras. I I arrived at the state police barracks an hour later and they were all there. I was escorted from the barracks the next morning for my arraignment and they were all there and they were all at the courthouse. So, the only reason cameras are involved is because you're parading me and trying to make a a case out of this.

52:45 · You're trying to show me looking this way like a criminal, and that's why you called the cameras in, but I should be allowed to put pants on or shoes. So, Bnik goes into my house. I see him on my my own my own home surveillance system.

53:02 · He's in my house for about 10 minutes. I told him where my closet was, where the room was. I have a bunch of suit. I was a professional wearing suits and professional attire my whole career. I have a closet filled with these clothes.

53:18 · And I directed him to that closet. He instead goes to the barracks with a pair of flipflops. I don't know where he found them from. my Javanas that I wear to the beach and ripped ripped jeans that I had just taken off from mowing my lawn. They had holes. They didn't cover my ankles. I would never wear these jeans. The grass stains.

53:43 · All right, here's all her medication and shoe wear that she wore.

53:48 · I'm going to I'm going to turn off my camera here.

53:51 · I can't remember if they gave me the clothes to wear that night in the cell or if he gave them to me before I went to court in the morning. A girlfriend of mine came to the barracks in the middle of the night with um court clothes with black pants, a black top, and black shoes. And they would not allow me to put those clothes on for court. So I heard her come in. I was in a cell and she said, "Can I give these for Karen for the morning?" and they they said something to her like, "We can't guarantee that, but we'll take them."

54:24 · Um, they gave them to me at some point the next day. They didn't allow me to put them on. Instead, they forced me to take the bag of clothes that Buchnik had secured, which was ripped jeans and flip-flops.

54:44 · That night was one of the worst nights of my life in the past four years because I called David from from jail and he uh he was worried. He was he was not able to tell me anything to allay my fright. I mean it's not concern. It was fright. and he said, "They've upcharged you with murder. I I don't know how they're able to do that on what evidence, but they've [music] increased the charges.

55:15 · Um they they want to keep you locked up now through trial, through verdict." Um but if if we're asking for bail, they're requesting a million dollars, which of course I did not have. So I spent the night knowing that that I've got to go before a judge tomorrow. I didn't know what judge it would be. And [music] I have to hope they lower this bill that they allow me to post it.

55:42 · A judge can deny you bail altogether.

55:44 · That you're a danger to society. You've been uh uh indicted for murder. You're you're not going home. There are active lawsuits between you and Michael Proctor amongst others, you know. So there's there's some things that you can't say, but there are things that are indisputable. So, Michael Proctor himself has admitted that he has texted people in group chats. He texted that he hasn't found your nudes yet. He talked about and made fun of your medical condition, saying, quote, "She's got a leaky balloon knot. It leaks poo."

56:18 · Calling you a quote whack job c. And then basically saying, "You are a babe with no ass."

56:27 · She's got a leaky balloon knot. You followed that up with the phrase leaks poo, didn't you?

56:32 · I did. Yet she's a babe. Weird fall river accent though. No ass.

56:38 · When did you first find out about these text messages? What What was going on in your mind?

56:44 · I knew there were vile text messages.

56:47 · They were under a federal protective order. They were first encountered by my team, by my lawyers in February of 2024, just before the first trial. Um, I was not able to view these text messages. I just knew the generals that they they existed and I I knew they were involved in the cross- examination prep, which I was very involved in.

57:14 · To have him, Michael Proctor himself, on the stand reading out what he sent.

57:20 · What's going on in your mind? Yeah, there had been some leaks on Twitter that I I saw an account, we called her a big, which I I assumed someone like him uses language like that. Anyway, I knew in general that they were vile, but when he read them, um I was actually annoyed that Adam Lai preempted us bringing these messages out in cross-examination. That should have been our moment. He's your lead detective.

57:50 · You're letting him lay this case out. This is showing bias and Adam Lai and and you always run into this issue with trial that if the evidence has already come out, you risk the judge saying, "Mr. Jackson, Mr. Yanetti, that's already been asked and answered."

58:08 · So, there was this worry that Lai is going to let Proctor read the text messages with very flat affect. and and and he did. You could barely understand. She's a babe with no ass. She has a leaky balloon and next question, you know, it was by design.

58:25 · Let's let's get him out there and preempt the defense from getting it out there. Luckily, we were still allowed and we we we made the biggest moment of it. Um I cared more about his lies. What he said about me and my anatomy, I it's disgusting, but it did not embarrass me.

58:49 · Michael Proctor does not have the ability to embarrass me. In fact, I have all that I have in my life right now and the love and support and new endeavors such as this and meeting people like you. Ironically, because of Michael Proctor and what he tried to do to me. Um, joking about my apple.

59:16 · I mean, I I I don't even want to say it was a joke. He was talking about my rectum and that I've had rectal surgery.

59:23 · um that this is a father of children of boys scarily. This is um a husband of a woman um someone's son. This is a cop with with power and a carrying a gun and my age more or less and and this is what he this is his vernacular but balloona and talking about my rectum. um you you're not embarrassing me, you're embarrassing yourself.

59:52 · And my medical issues, I've never been embarrassed by. I've struggled to deal with them in society and in intimate situations. And but I'm I'm proud of what I've had to deal with. And the more I talk to people and the older I I grow, I know everyone's got something. No one's escaping completely in one piece as we as we age. Um I cared more about his lies. Him lying so blatantly.

1:00:29 · Every search warrant, nine of them took the car at 5:30. Took the car at 5:30.

1:00:35 · Why? Why? Why? because the cert team and this was another major lamp post in 2022 for me was when I was finally indicted after the awful experience of June 9th into June 10th the floodgates opened and now we get all the discovery and a cousin of mine who's an attorney we agreed we'd get the discovery which was thousands of in thousands of pages and we we attacked it from I I think she went from the beginning to the middle and I went from the end to the middle.

1:01:07 · And um she was she's a lobbyist. She was working full-time, but every night she went home. I worked on it all day. She worked on it all night. And she called me one night. This is in about July. So I've been indicted now and upcharge for a month. And we're working our way through our discovery. I don't know what day. I would be guessing, but it was like a Thursday, a week night. She calls me at about 10 or 11. And she said, "Karen, read the C report. This is the the crime scene services search team.

1:01:34 · Um it's an 8 by 8 and 1 half by 11 piece of paper and there's a whole box for a narrative about the evidence that was found at 34 Fearview and there's only four lines that I needed glasses to read what they said and it was that the first pieces of red and clear lens were found at 34 Fair View. I can't remember if the report said 5:45 or 6:00 p.m.

1:02:04 · And then all of a sudden it was my light was not there all day long because that was something I could not reconcile for months and months in 2022. But how did my tail light get there? How did did they somehow find pieces of it broken at John's house from when I hit John's car at 5 in the morning? And and were they able to transport those? That's the only thing I could figure out.

1:02:32 · And I still didn't have an answer as to why he lied about taking my car at 5:30 when he actually took it and left at 4:15. And it was that night in July, the SER team did not find tail light until after Proctor had the tail light. And he had to get himself out of Canton at 5:45. If he's in Dyon at 5:30 in a blizzard, 35 miles from Canton, there's no way he can be in Canton with the Lexus and the Lexus's red tail light um at 5:45.

1:03:03 · And it just it was just the biggest eureka of more than the text messages, more than the butt dials, more than the phone and the SIM card cut up at the at the Air Force base. To me, it was the cornerstone because it just bothered me. I just couldn't reconcile how did my tail light get there. I know I did not break my tail light. Yeah.

1:03:30 · At 34. I tried to think of every scenario in which I could have and none of it was reasonable. And then I I realized that moment it was placed there after they had access to it and the inverted footage and and of the inverted footage. I mean, the inverted footage didn't come for two more years, but when Proctor [snorts] was on the stand reading the messages, he's a whack job. See you.

1:03:55 · Objection.

1:03:58 · So, don't spell it. You have to. So, this these are your words, Trooper Proctor.

1:04:02 · Yeah, Shiron.

1:04:03 · Go ahead and say them.

1:04:06 · Uh, yes. She's a babe. Weird fall river accent, though. Though, I'm going through his client's phone right now. Correct.

1:04:19 · Yes. After the picture, sir. Yes. Who's the client?

1:04:24 · Um, I was referring to Miss Freed.

1:04:27 · He also called her [ __ ] Correct.

1:04:32 · That is what's written.

1:04:33 · And that's what you read.

1:04:36 · I have no memory of reading that. I acknowledged him going through the phone on my Apple Watch. I have no memory of him writing [ __ ] on a text message. Did you encourage that statement by Michael Proctor by liking it with a thumbs up?

1:04:58 · I don't know if it encouraged him, but so I cannot I cannot speak to that.

1:05:03 · But that's what you did.

1:05:04 · I acknowledged the text message being sent.

1:05:07 · How close did you remain in contact with Michael Proctor after high school?

1:05:11 · Very close.

1:05:12 · Could you read all of them, please?

1:05:15 · [clears throat] These are not my words. I'm not really comfortable reading these. Do I have to say these words out loud?

1:05:21 · I'll say the words and I'm going to ask you if I'm reading accurately. Is that better?

1:05:25 · Yes.

1:05:26 · 11 p.m. 5 minutes 57 seconds. Mr.

1:05:29 · Proctor says, "From all accounts, he didn't do a thing wrong. She's a whack job." And then uses the C word to describe. Is that accurate?

1:05:38 · That's accurate.

1:05:39 · At the bottom from one member in the group stating, "Oh, she's skating."

1:05:42 · Yes.

1:05:43 · Mr. Proctor responds, "Zero chance she skated.

1:05:48 · She's effed. She's [ __ ] Yes.

1:05:51 · And then one person in the in the group says, "No ass bitch." Accurate.

1:05:55 · That's accurate.

1:05:56 · Mr. Proctor, there's a response. Laughed at quote. No ass [ __ ] Yes.

1:06:04 · Somebody in the group says, "Is that chick a smoke?" And then the same person follows up with a question mark.

1:06:10 · Accurate.

1:06:11 · Accurate.

1:06:12 · Mr. Proctor responds, "Eh, yes. nut bag as my chief would say.

1:06:18 · Yes.

1:06:18 · She's got a leaky balloon knot.

1:06:21 · Yes.

1:06:21 · Leaks clue.

1:06:22 · Yes.

1:06:22 · Are those the words of Mr. Proctor?

1:06:24 · They are.

1:06:25 · Did I read those accurately?

1:06:26 · You did.

1:06:27 · But you're still friends with him?

1:06:28 · I am.

1:06:30 · He could be a pig and I could still be guilty. That's why I wanted the focus of the jury to be on Proctor's lies and the actual framing and how was this orchestrated. and not on the fact that this man is a vile pig who talks about people's rectums.

1:06:53 · You you could still have a guilty woman and just a a very unprofessional investigator. I cared much more about the lies that enabled him to pull off what he pulled off. And the the text messages were just I I just spent my energy assuring my parents that do not feel bad for me. This this this does not this man does not have that power over me.

1:07:22 · Anyone who looks at me differently because some stranger who's never seen me Yeah.

1:07:30 · naked is going to talk about my anatomy. Um anyone who finds that entertaining or is going to judge me for it isn't anybody I want in my life anyway.

1:07:38 · Yeah.

1:07:38 · During the trial, you're sitting there, the witnesses are going up onto the stand. They're testifying. They're like, "Karen did this. Karen said this."

1:07:46 · How do you not go up and testify? Do you not have the urge to be like, "No, let me tell you." I I did have the urge, and I tried to to quell that and to satiate it by doing the documentary so that I could go back to the hotel at night and be interviewed. the judge was appearing to be so much more lenient with her rulings with the prosecution than she was with us. I mean, we had to fight for everything.

1:08:12 · Um, and it it it it seemed to be a one-way street that there was a worry if I testified, the prosecutor, especially Brennan, he was he was he seemed to be given even more latitude than Lai was. He he did this with our witnesses. He was putting words in their mouths in his in his questions of those witnesses. Um not exactly, but for example, something like he would say to Dr. Wolf from ARCA.

1:08:42 · So after a car has backed up um 60 ft at 20 m an hour and damaged this arm, then did the car keep going? Like he he you can't testify for the witness. Wolf has to agree that that car I I can't remember the numbers anymore. I used to know them with precision and now I don't. But he would ask a question and insert the answer he wanted, which he shouldn't be allowed to do, but he was.

1:09:14 · So there was real risk. Same with risks putting Proctor on the stand that we're not playing by the same rules that Brennan was just so unethical in his questioning. Um, I was really all right.

1:09:28 · I had lived three years before the first trial of long hearings, battling for things. I was getting used to it at this point. I don't think the public really started paying attention outside of the local market. Really started paying attention until trial, but we had hours and hours of hearings for three years, including two arrests where I was in chains, shackled and handcuffed. So, I had gotten very good at venting to the people that were there to be to be vented to.

1:09:56 · And um I knew if I can escape this this hell um I I will be able to to get my side out. So um it wasn't as bad as people think like how did you watch this person and and not scream. Um I felt very close to God. I I felt my parents' presence behind me.

1:10:17 · I I had my lawyers who became like family all of them to me and I knew they were frustrated on my behalf and I knew the public especially by the second trial. The public knew what was happening that Karen this isn't your your scourge. This is not your cross alone. Everybody behind you and around you is carrying it. do not let it do not let it eat at you. Do not let that person control you.

1:10:53 · Um and and it they were all so so repetitive and so like one another like I don't recall and it was the defendant and and um and uh I I I wish I'd known. I wish I had gone outside and I it was it was it wasn't laughable. It was very serious, but it was very predictable and um and I hope it was transparent to the jury. And apparently it was to both juries cuz I was acquitted both times.

1:11:21 · Did you get a vibe that Auntie Bev did not like you, Judge Canon?

1:11:26 · Yes.

1:11:26 · Yes. I felt that Judge Canon did not I felt that she had a personal animous towards me. Absolutely. I felt it very early on. Um, in our early hearings in 2022, we would we wouldn't be called right away because there were other cases.

1:11:43 · They started prioritizing us and we were drawing such crowds that when we would have a hearing, they would get it started very promptly to help clear the courthouse, get us all in and get us all out, get the media out, and then hear other cases. But early on when it wasn't attracting a big crowd, we would wait our turn and there'd be other cases and other defendants called and I was sitting at a hearing um I think I want

1:12:08 · to say it was September of 2022 was like the first hearing that Allen was on the team for and we were sitting in the back row um if you're looking at the courtroom on the left side waiting and there were maybe four other cases that she called and every defendant it was all four men maybe one woman um thank you for being here. Thank you for dressing professionally for court. She said this. It was [snorts] it was on repeat for every Thank you for being here. Thank you for dressing professionally to court. This happened multiple hearings. She never said it to me.

1:12:36 · There were moments that I I felt she was um she was she was ruling unfairly. But as far as not liking me, um that was the first indication I felt she may not like me personally for some reason.

1:12:51 · And then there was a moment with the verdict form in trial one where I I mean your viewers need to see the verdict form if they if they haven't that they then tried to present in the second trial again this verdict form um it had just by setup it had the word guilty eight times and the word not guilty three times. Um it's visually confusing.

1:13:17 · It's visually confusing and it's prejudicing the jurors to think I'm guilty because they just see the word guilty so many times. So Allen is arguing with the court and with the clerk that we want to revise this verdict form. And she's arguing this is how it's always done, Mr. Jackson. This is how it's done in Massachusetts. I mean, that was the topic of what was happening at the time. And and she just kind of dismissed it and we're done here. And I went like Just like that.

1:13:48 · And she said, "Is this funny, Miss Reed?"

1:13:54 · Okay, I disagree with you. All right.

1:13:56 · Excuse me. This is funny, Miss Reed.

1:14:00 · All right, we're done.

1:14:02 · All rise for the court, please.

1:14:04 · I I think it was prejuditial towards me, the defendant, that she chose to characterize my exasperation as making a joke of the proceeding. Is this funny, Miss Reed? My jurors and the media heard that and that was a gross mischaracterization.

1:14:22 · Judge Canon knows exactly what my reaction was. It was one of disbelief and exasperation and frustration and she addressed me. I'm I have lawyers here who speak on my behalf. You can address my lawyers who can address me. But you addressing me directly is baiting me Yeah. to then respond to the court, which will not end well for me. Um, but those and and the list the list goes on.

1:14:54 · But her her calling me out like she knows what I'm going through right now.

1:15:00 · She she knows how difficult this is for any defendant to stand trial.

1:15:06 · Um, when the verdict was read, we were prepared for a sentencing hearing. So my legal team in the days of the verdict watch was split up into two groups at the hotel. Allan had a suite at one end of the top floor and Bob Allesie had a suite at the other and we had we had two teams. Liza, Evan, Allan and I were working on the closing argument.

1:15:33 · David, Yianetti, Bob, and um Sophie and Sydney, two of our interns, were in Bob's room working on a sentencing hearing. So, if, god forbid, I would I was convicted of anything, which we thought there was a likelihood I could be convicted of of the OUI based on how the first trial ended, um, hung up looking, jurors were telling us they were looking for an OUI, not a manslaughter OUI, but just garden variety OUI that was not there.

1:16:05 · They were working on sentencing that if I was convicted of OUI, we fully expected, I did anyway. My lawyers were split that Brennan would ask for the maximum two years. So, it was such a difficult decision to put the OUI on the slip because I felt I was almost guaranteeing I was going to go to jail that with this district attorney and this judge, if I don't put OUI on, the jury is

1:16:35 · forced, if they want to convict me, it's going to have to it's going to have to do with John's death. But once I put OUI on, just drunk driving, I'm much more likely, based on the evidence, the blood alcohol taken from the hospital, I'm more likely to get a conviction. And while I'm not facing life in prison, I could be facing two years in prison.

1:16:56 · I had to have um I got about a dozen character letters they're called of um not friends and family but teachers I've had students I've had um co-workers of mine and the the character letter has to be written on the premise that you are guilty you're not arguing for my innocence. You have to accept the conviction but then argue for the judge based on my character and what they know about me personally that she should go light on sentencing.

1:17:23 · So, I'm in [snorts] one room preparing for a full acquitt with Allen's clothes and then I'm running down the hall and making sure all the letters, the character letters are printed, getting printed and we have case law for the judge that this is a first time OUI. What do you do for a first- time OUI? You suspend their license and they go to a drunk driving class. If if Brennan, which we expected, was going to argue for jail time, we had to have a robust motion in opposition.

1:17:52 · Why not? So, the verdict is read. I'm relieved, but I'm still waiting after the final not guilty. The leaving the scene was read. I still have sentencing because I was found guilty of the OUI. So, Judge Canon looks at Hank Brennan and says, "And what do you recommend for sentencing?" And this was almost more shocking than the verdict. Truly shocking. Like, I had expected it if I had to bet an appendage.

1:18:19 · Yeah.

1:18:19 · had thought if I was convicted of OUI or anything, Brennan would ask for the max sentence. And I thought she would split the baby and say, "Well, the max is two. I'm going to give her a year." Which is still devastating.

1:18:32 · So, she looks to Brennan and he says, "The the Commonwealth recommends one year probation with a suspended license." And she looks at him and says, "Same as every other firsttime offender." And he goes, "Same as every other first time." And it was like the most charitable thing. The actually not even charitable. I'm I'm I'm miscalibrated. It was fair.

1:18:56 · You're not used to that.

1:18:57 · I I Okay, Mr. Brennan, what's the Commonwealth's recommendation?

1:19:00 · No.

1:19:00 · The Commonwealth moves for sentencing.

1:19:02 · We recommend a probation one-year 24D program.

1:19:06 · So, the standard that everybody else gets on their first time OUI.

1:19:09 · Certainly. Okay.

1:19:10 · We ask that she be treated no different.

1:19:12 · We know better.

1:19:12 · So, I'm I'm happy to do it.

1:19:15 · All right. Thank you all. one year probation. One year probation on docket number 002.

1:19:20 · It's the wildest turn of events. I couldn't believe that this man Brennan was just arguing in his closing argument two days earlier for me to spend my life in prison. And then he has a moment with a judge that seems favorable to him to send me to jail. Enough to hurt.

1:19:41 · A week is enough to hurt. And he says just slap her on the wrist. I'm I looked at him and it just so is this were you faking all along.

1:19:52 · Or you know this is the only way to be saved with your public image is you lost. So now you almost have to be reasonable. But this is just a big it just felt like a big game that they they call in the jury. They're about to read the verdict. They stuff the courtroom with court officers because if I'm guilty of uh if I'm sentenced to anything requiring incarceration and if I'm convicted of of of murder, I'm getting cuffed right there on the spot.

1:20:24 · I can't reach behind and squeeze my mother. I can't hug one of my lawyers. It's over and I'm walking out the back door. So, they surround you and to prevent any outburst and to control me. And then in the blink of an eye, it's Yeah, just make her go to a a DUI class and there's a parade out front for her, too, by the way. It was just that was the most befuddling of the three months of the second trial was when Brennan said, "Yeah, just one year probation." I'm like, "Wait a minute.

1:20:56 · You You've been trying to end my life.

1:20:58 · You're Can you at least be consistent?"

1:21:00 · Yeah.

1:21:00 · And pretend you think I'm a bad person?

1:21:03 · Can you just finish the charade? and and even uh with the judge. Um so the standard that everybody else gets on their first time OUI certainly.

1:21:14 · Okay.

1:21:14 · It was same as every other like I gez I haven't felt same as every other defendant at all in this in this courthouse. Um that I was still in shock at that I was I was convicted of the OUI and that Brennan didn't argue and all that work we did of course because we were prepared. We didn't need it. Thank God. Um, but that was one of the more shocking shocking events of the second trial for me.

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1:23:33 · Speaking of her characteriz characterizing you as thinking something is funny, I feel like during your trial, there was so much emphasis on your demeanor, your expressions. There are some crazy headlines that I think maybe you can clear the air on.

1:23:52 · Um, if you want to pass me exhibit A. So, I'm going to read you the headline and the accompanying photo that they put with this headline and then some comments. And I feel like probably what happened is nothing like the headline cuz I'm sure.

1:24:07 · Thank you. This is the first headline by the New York Post, of course, who does not like you for some reason. And the headline is Karen Reed flashed sinister smirk as gory photos of her dead cop boyfriend are shown in court.

1:24:22 · Yeah.

1:24:22 · I mean, I'm imagining that was not No. Um, first of all, I'm talking. Um, my eyes are wide open. I'm looking to that looks to my right. That's Alan or Liza sitting there and I'm going something. I mean, I can I can reproduce that face very very easily. But um I I'm not smirking. I'm actually just speaking and I don't think I spoke or turned at all when the the photos were shown. I I looked I mean I remember this very clearly, but I I would look I've seen those photos. They're on my phone.

1:24:54 · Yeah, I've um I've p poured through them to his pores. I know his photos. I've watched his autopsy.

1:25:07 · Those photos as as shown in court, I have had for years and I have analyzed. It took us there's there's a burn mark on his um on his sternum that we couldn't figure out for months what it was and finally realized I think I googled or described it to Google. It was the um he was burned with the defibrillator pads.

1:25:32 · Um I'm just giving an example of they were horrifying to see. For several weeks, I told David not to upload them to the Dropbox that lived on my cell phone because I didn't want there to be any chance I'd be scrolling through Dropbox. And there there it was. The autopsy took me like a year. It's quite gruesome. I can't believe people do this for a living, but um but I I had to know everything so I could piece everything together. But I wasn't I don't believe I spoke ever or turned to speak to a lawyer.

1:26:03 · Well, the photos of his body were up on the projection.

1:26:08 · That's what we assumed.

1:26:09 · But I do look like that when I talk sometimes, unfortunately.

1:26:13 · This one is also wild. Karen Reed rolls eyes, snaps at defense team as she stands trial in murder of Boston cop boyfriend John O'Keefe. Oh, I'm sure I rolled my eyes. I know I have rolled my eyes many times. Um, I speak very emphatically to the defense team. I'm very animated and emotional, but I have never snapped at them. I imagine even if I wanted to, which I've never wanted to. I I would never do that. But I I there were many times in trial that I looked at a lawyer.

1:26:45 · It was easiest to look to David because my back would be to the camera, but I I I [laughter] can't help it.

1:26:52 · Um I I definitely rolled my eyes during trial many times. [snorts] And honestly, it's crazy that they're doing this. And like the people's comments is even crazier because I don't know what people want from you. Like do they want you to kill it? Do they want you to You can't win for losing. If you're crying then um I I I am out of out of tears. Um I am out of tears about the tragedy of January 29th. I I have mourned for months and years before the public ever knew me.

1:27:22 · Um, so I but that's why lawyers advise you. You've got to look at the way the juryy's looking at it that they're seeing those photos for the first time. You have to pretend like you're looking It's hard for me to pretend much.

1:27:39 · Um, it's it's I can't fake things. Then I feel like I look like a a faker. So I I try to be stoic. Um, I could not cry.

1:27:49 · I would not allow myself to cry. I would not cry in front of the O'Keeffe. I would not cry in front of the prosecution. Um I felt both both of those groups were looking at this completely backwards. They were refusing to see the truth or willingly not seeing looking at the truth.

1:28:06 · Um and I needed to stay strong. I couldn't break down. I did one day going into court. It [music] was just I I just had a really tough time getting out of the SUV. It was just a rough morning.

1:28:19 · [music] Um, I I I couldn't go up and down emotionally like that. I had to go in strong. I I had to go in tough and I had to maintain it. I I had to control myself the best I could and I wasn't about to strap myself in to an emotional roller coaster. I would never survive. I had to do this twice. So, um I I understand I do understand the public saying that's horrible what I just heard or what I just saw.

1:28:46 · First of all, things that may have seemed emotional and upsetting to the public, I may have found to be insincere, but a lot of the gruesome images I have I have dealt with and seen nearly nearly daily. Understand the reaction of the public expecting more emotion, but I I have evolved to a different place.

1:29:09 · You were just damned if you do, damned if you don't. Yeah.

1:29:12 · Yep. If you had to go to lunch with either Lai or Brennan, [gasps] who would you go to lunch with?

1:29:23 · [laughter] Um, I would go with Brennan.

1:29:27 · Oh, really? Okay.

1:29:27 · I I would go with Brennan. Um, I I feel that I make him very uncomfortable. Um, your honor, my brief review of the lab my brief review of the lab paperwork and looking at the hoodie, it appears that I made a mistake. We've had we've had some stare offs in the courtroom. Um, Lai, I I don't have pleasant thoughts about about either one of them.

1:29:52 · I don't think they're honorable. I don't think they have integrity. I don't think they're honest. I wouldn't want to eat or watch either of them eat.

1:29:58 · But uh um I I think I'd have better stories to tell eating with Pink Brennan.

1:30:04 · I saw online everyone calls Lai Lai Lullabi and 16.

1:30:09 · You have one minute, Mr. Lai. Wrap it up.

1:30:11 · Yes.

1:30:13 · All consistent with the pieces of tail light that are found within his clo. [clears throat] [cough and clears throat] It's very monotone. Um, I was really surprised at how neither seemed to really prepare much. Like, um, Lai might have read. I can't even remember. You know, when you don't practice a memory, you don't remember it anymore and you you tend not to want to practice painful memories. So, I can't remember if Lai read.

1:30:51 · I think he did for his opening and closing arguments in the first trial, but Brennan did not. And I think he was trying I'm guessing if I had to guess that he was trying to convey an ease with the subject matter, a comfort and familiarity and conviction in the subject matter and an intelligence that I can speak extemporaneously about what this woman did.

1:31:19 · I know so well and I believe so strongly that she did it that I'm going to walk around and pontificate um and we were much more structured. But I know the details of this case. I know I know them and I know he he messed a lot of them up and I mean the jurors didn't have their notebooks in closing argument so it was probably lost on them luckily for Brennan. But he he he should have written he should have written at at least some bullets for the details for the for the data points.

1:31:52 · Clearly, this is a hypothetical question. If you could put at least two people involved in your case, inject them with truth serum, compel them to tell the truth, which two people would you choose?

1:32:09 · Michael Proctor and Brian Albert. What would you hypothetically want to know or ask?

1:32:17 · The truth about that night, about everything that night, the months. I have a pretty good guess of how things I've seen these men. They were on tape sparring and shadow boxing just minutes before.

1:32:49 · just minutes before. I I can I can surmise based on what I know of these people, what I know of John when he's been drinking, what I've seen of Colin Albert when I've had to cross paths with him, I I can I can surmise what happened. I'm more curious about whom they had to enlist in other events that unfolded over the following months as as we made headway probably much to their Yeah.

1:33:28 · disbelief.

1:33:28 · Mhm.

1:33:30 · Have you run into them since the trial?

1:33:31 · Any of them? Like in public? What What would you do if you did? That's a good question. I I I want to say no, but let me think about it. Um like I was in a I was in a bar. I was at the Warren Tavern in Charles Town and a girl who works there is a very a very staunch supporter. She was at many of the trial dates and she had told me that Brian Albert had been in there. I know that I've I've I've missed Brian Albert a couple times. My guess is he is not embraced in Boston establishments the way Yeah. the way I am.

1:34:04 · Um but no, I don't think I've run into thank thankfully. I don't I don't care to see I don't fantasize about it. I I don't need to see any of these people.

1:34:15 · What about like people who think you're guilty? Like have you run into them in public? And but and how could you tell because is that what they say, how they act?

1:34:24 · Yeah.

1:34:24 · I had one person out of at this point over several thousand um come up to me on handover street. I was leaving a restaurant um Sarasinos where the owners have been incredibly hospitable to me and my legal team um throughout trial. We'd pop in there all the time.

1:34:47 · Um and some woman very haggarded older woman came up to me and asked me right outside the restaurant. We had just we had just left um and she came up to me on the on the steps of Sarasinos and said, "How how can you smile? You Karen Reed, how can you smile?" And before I could even I' I'd not had an interaction like this at all. This was in um this was in November of 2024.

1:35:12 · Between the two trials, I had not had an encounter like this. And the owners of Sarosinos, they also own um like a coffee shop right next door. So, they take up some real estate on that sidewalk. Several of them came out and all but all but chased her down the street with pitchforks. Shut up. You you you're you're ignorant. And um she was um she didn't seem to be of all her Yeah, she didn't seem to be of all her of all her wits. That is the only time that has happened.

1:35:40 · Um we've spent most of our time in the seapport. We've just in our downtime nearly every Friday. I can't think of a Friday that eventually we didn't make our way to a restaurant. You you had to decompress no matter how exhausted, which we all were every Friday. You you had to blow off some steam.

1:36:02 · Um just be somewhere loud and talk to people and the support at uh so many establishments um anywhere in New Street and we were in the north end a lot. Um, I have not paid for a full drinks, appetizer, dinner, dessert tab in two in two years. Um, people and it's all helped. It's all helped get us there. And it especially for my lawyers and my family, they're not me.

1:36:34 · I know what support I have. Everywhere I go, [music] I'm supported. They need to know it, too, because when they go home during between the trials, they're they're back to their I don't want to say obscurity, but just back to their normal lives. But I can't thank the people in Boston proper, young couples, families, business proprietors, the people at the hotel, two hotels we've stayed at a lot.

1:37:03 · um just um makes us feel so strong and for me makes me feel confident that if my jury is anything representative of the people I'm encountering every day, I will be okay.

1:37:17 · Um but that the the the public the public that was very vocal at court and online on social media um and the public that just came up to me one moment on the street and I never saw them again. um has helped invigorate and steal [music] Yeah.

1:37:37 · each each each one of us. Even if we may not have acted, I mean, there were times people came up for selfies and we were having there there was a a serious conversation Allan and I were having with Marty Weinberg at the end of this second trial and I said, "Allan, um, [music] I really have no money left.

1:37:59 · I had the last asset I had was my house and that paid the bulk of trial 2 plus donations. Um, [music] but now I need to put wheels in motion for an appeal. My parents are getting older. Uh, my closest friend who's incredibly intelligent, um, is also incredibly busy professionally.

1:38:22 · This was like a week before the closing argument and Allan and I were in a restaurant. It was quiet and we were talking to Marty Weinberg on speaker. And it's funny, I ended up seeing a photo. I There was a woman at the bar of this restaurant that I could tell was taking our photo. She was she was weird.

1:38:40 · I I didn't actually see her take a photo, but she was very interested in us. I ended up seeing the photo of Alan and me on Twitter with some some salacious the headline. And I thought I I showed it to Alan. that if they only knew what we were actually if she had just walked over and spied on us, the headline would have been even better than what the contrived heading headline was, which is

1:39:06 · Karen Reed and Allen Jackson overheard on speaker with Marty Weinberg discussing a potential conviction.

1:39:14 · Yeah.

1:39:14 · And Marty, you know, Marty we don't talk about a lot because he's just come in as a pinch hitter, but it's been in such major ways and the appeal, which was somewhat [snorts] thankless because we didn't have any success with it after the after the the first acquitt, the mistrial. But um I'll never forget that conversation with him. It was I I think a Sunday afternoon and I'm in a steakhouse with Allan talking to him and Marty says, "You're not going to need it, Karen. you're not going to need it, but this is who I recommend.

1:39:44 · This is the kind of retainer he's going to need. You need to do this. You need to do this. And um it was a tough day. I I we walked back to the hotel and I felt I was probably like a little a little weepy. Um I don't remember how I got on that topic, but [music] I think someone was like asking for a selfie.

1:40:02 · Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Someone um so on the way home from that call with Marty, a daughter and mother had asked for selfies and I I just I couldn't. It's the selfie question is very difficult. Um, a lot of times I'm eating or I'm having a private conversation. I don't like how I look like any normal Yeah.

1:40:25 · 45-year-old woman. Um, I I've been crying or I've been upset. And then if you say no, then people think I'm a [ __ ] Like, I'm supporting you. You're in trial for murdering a cup. You should be so lucky that I'm I'm I'm trying to support you. Um, but then if I do take the photo, it's on social media and I look like I'm enjoying my life. I'm smiling and I look celebratory. I I cannot win that that game.

1:40:52 · I've I've turned people down for selfies and then they just walk a half a block back and take it. Um, [snorts] or they'll they'll ask, "Well, can I can I have her if I'm with Liza, can I just take her a selfie?" Um, there's definitely I'm I'm smart enough about Gen Z millennials and my Gen X that I cannot interpret every selfie as staunch support for my innocence.

1:41:18 · There are people that ask for selfies that maybe don't even believe I'm innocent or don't know anything about the case, but know that I'm I've had people come up to me in the seapport and say, "Are you famous?" because they just saw it and then ask for a selfie and they don't even know who I am. They're going to post it and then and then start collecting the likes.

1:41:39 · See, I've had it's always been a guy, too. Like a a Gen Z guy. Who are you?

1:41:45 · Like, who are [laughter] you? I'm like, you don't need to worry. If you don't know, then it's you don't need to worry about it.

1:41:51 · They're like, are you on TV?

1:41:52 · Yeah, that too. Yeah, it's weird. Have you been on the Karen Reed Reddit pages?

1:41:58 · One good thing about having such a high-profile case that's played out publicly is if we're working on trial or working on a witness and it's well when did when did Buchnik testify that the video was a true and accurate representation of the Sallyport? I can just Google it. I don't even it's like all right, what's quicker? Do I go into my files with my library lookup system or do I just Google it and it says day 27 Bnick testifies June 10th or whatever the date was.

1:42:24 · So, I I have not purposefully gone on Reddit to look myself up, but I have done searches looking for details that have led me to Reddit, and I've always been very pleased. I may not be seeing the right things, but I've always been pleased at the discussions I've seen on Reddit.

1:42:42 · They seem um they're intelligible and they're intelligent. They're not as emotionally, it seems anyway, that they're not as emotionally charged as social media pages where there are people with targeted goals. Like there'll be I I I'm not on Twitter anymore, but I have popped on and off Twitter because there are some people that have actually done very good digging that's been helpful to me.

1:43:02 · But I'll read a comment that um [snorts] Karen Reed looks like a a a leather handbag and and she looks like a man with a wig or I I I like I've read very very phys physically demeaning things. I'm like clearly you are over emotional for someone for some unconnected third party. You can say I don't like the look on her face, she looks guilty or I don't like the sound of her voice. She sounds arrogant.

1:43:32 · Um, but when it gets very personal, I think, all right, which member of which family is [laughter] this is too visceral, you you you must be part of the shrapnel in this in this whole mess that you're saying I I don't know. I'm exactly those comments, but they're so they're trying to hurt me, but they're so personal that it's so obvious it's it's one of these or it's it's it's one of those guys. Goofy. I know that you legally cannot say a lot of things.

1:44:06 · There are a lot of theories online about Canton's residence. [sighs and gasps] A girl must try. So, I'm just going to run them through you. There is an online conspiracy that Brian Albert and his sister-in-law Jen McCabe um JEN JEN are having an affair. Do you know anything about that? I do not know anything about that. I had I had read things like that very early on.

1:44:35 · Um John O'Keeffe had told me when we first started dating in 2020. So we started dating very early in the pandemic. We had dated when we were in our early 20s, but we dated we reconnected. He reached out to me during the pandemic, I think, just cuz everyone was stranded at home and resorting to social networking.

1:44:55 · And he had told me like our second date that there is a uh this is according to John that there was there is was at that time a swinger scene in Canton which I had read in Boston magazine that there was one in a different Boston suburb. I'd never read specifically about Canton, but John insisted there was. And I think he can't be the only person and I can't be the second person that's heard that rumor.

1:45:23 · Fueled by these are people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s in some cases, hanging out all the time, drinking very late, drinking with family. Um, so I don't know if there's truth to it, but I could see how how rumors like that start. I had heard it from John, not about anyone in particular, but about couples in Canton.

1:45:49 · How long to die in cold? [music] What's the weirdest thing you've ever Googled?

1:46:02 · What's the weirdest thing I've ever Googled at like 2:00 in the morning?

1:46:07 · Oh [laughter] god. Uh I I'm sure I've Googled something weird. I haven't googled anything incriminating. I'm sure it had something to do with like matching wires on a chandelier at my house or or something like to do with fixing something like what is this bolt that's sticking out of my lawn mower or something. But um [laughter and gasps] I don't know. I don't think I've googled something like perverted perverted or worse in [laughter] any way. But there is an online rumor that Jen McCabe has voodoo dolls plural of you. Do you believe it?

1:46:43 · Uh, I don't believe that.

1:46:45 · You don't?

1:46:47 · I don't.

1:46:48 · That's good. Okay. Cuz that would be creepy. I don't know how I would feel if someone had voodoo dolls of me.

1:46:55 · It's not working.

1:46:56 · Yeah, that's [laughter] true.

1:46:58 · My husband saw a post on Chinese social media. Um, a former student of yours wrote, and this is translated, so I'm going to read it. Okay.

1:47:08 · Karen Reed was my university professor back when I was applying for graduate school. She was the one who wrote my recommendation letter. She is sharp-minded, always positive, and someone I often had long inspiring talks with. She encouraged me a lot. She even told me how I should learn to protect myself in the future. The financial industry is not a stranger to male supervisors and female subordinates with quidd proquo situations. I watched all the live stream news coverage of her trial.

1:47:34 · I tried to stay in touch, but I couldn't find her LinkedIn, so I decided to write this post to commemorate [music] her. She will always have a special place in my heart. Is her name Claire?

1:47:46 · Can you check? Yeah. You remember?

1:47:48 · Um there was a group of Chinese students I had um around 2018 that I got very close with and they would just hang hang around and it stood out to me cuz it was it was winter semester and I taught till about like 10 at night. So when a student stood stuck around, they'd walk me to my car. Um, I did bond with that group and one in particular named Claire, but I it might not be because I think I am connected to her on LinkedIn.

1:48:18 · I'm sad I didn't I don't speak Chinese because I would have like I never saw that. Um Oh my god. Yeah. Um, the name I saw was Lulu Chen. Maybe that's her Chinese.

1:48:28 · Oh. Oh, I do know who that is. I do know who Oh my god. Um, that's Oh, I have not thought about her in a minute. Um, [music] because of all that's happened. I do know exactly who that is.

1:48:41 · I remember all your stupid I remember her. Um good.

1:48:44 · No, because you were if you write a letter and she's saying we had these conversations and I was I I I remember um very [snorts] petite and long long hair and she was [music] very um very very trendy. I remember Lulu.

1:49:00 · She even said that one time she walked into the class and you um complimented her on her shoes and bags. Yeah, I was just going to say remember her bags. I was just trying to um She's saying you're the most fashionable teacher [laughter] and that didn't that's that doesn't take much. Um that doesn't take much. Yeah, she's very fashionable, very earnest, and [music] um I know exactly who she is. Um so, hi Lulu. I hope you're doing well.

1:49:26 · Do you miss teaching? Do you like I do. Yeah.

1:49:29 · What did you mainly teach? like so finance but like what I taught um I taught a few different courses but mainly I taught an introduction to capital markets um like how the stock market works how a company goes public how to analyze a company's financial statements we did a lot of real world examples I taught through the financial crisis I started teaching in um 07 or or '08 I started at Fidelity in ' 07 And I started teaching in '08.

1:50:01 · I felt at Fidelity I was very very much junior. I was a very small fish and just the best pond to be in. But it was difficult on my self-esteem. Um it was a lot of strong personalities, incredibly intelligent, the biggest investors, literally the biggest investors. It was it was a great place. I I would never have left on my own accord if I if I didn't have to. But I felt just for my self-esteem I I wanted to do more.

1:50:31 · I felt like teaching um kept me sharp in a different way. Work I was always my full-time job I was always learning. But teaching you have to be prepared every class that there is a student smarter than you or many students smarter than you at least on some topic that there is something they have he or she has a personal interest in. um broad or narrow and they

1:50:57 · are going to know more than you um and you have to know how deep can I prepare how much can I help enhance this subject matter and when do you say I am not familiar with that I'm not familiar with that company or I'm not familiar with that investment product um you cannot fake it and this is Bentley is not the Ivy League but I had incredibly intelligent Ivy League worthy students every semester that I I did learn things from.

1:51:29 · But you've got to know your your boundaries. Um but you also want to push them that if there is interest from students in a topic that I'm not overly comfortable in, how much can I learn so that we can extend this extend this topic? But I loved it. Um I loved the students. Uh I love being back on campus. I've always been connected to Bentley. I My dad's worked there my entire life. Um I went to basketball camps there in high school. I went to undergrad. I went to grad there.

1:52:00 · And um and I miss it, but this I I haven't chosen this, but this is what I'm this was the bigger purpose for me. I don't have children. I I don't see that happening at this point. But my my legacy is going to be my impact on Massachusetts and possibly broader criminal justice.

1:52:24 · And what I did at Bentley and what I did at Fidelity can be easily maybe Bentley not so easily because teachers you have freedom and subjectivity to turn a class into whatever you want to turn it into.

1:52:40 · Um but this is like it or not. This is what I'm here for and this is what my parents and my friends and my lawyers this is why they went to law school.

1:52:50 · We're we're going to change. We've already changed things. Even if I was convicted, the change has happened. People even if that jury came back and convicted me, people who watched every day of that trial or three days of the trial know what they saw. They don't need a jury to confirm it for them. I would I've read comments online when I've indulged against my better instincts that I'm going to let it play out.

1:53:21 · It hasn't been I'm not going to um buy this conspiracy.

1:53:26 · It's all up to the jury. I've read many comments like that. Like let the let the it's usually from the other side, the baddies. Um [laughter] let it let it play out. Um this is for a jury to decide. Like what a narrowminded way to go through life that I'm going to let a jury tell me. I mean, it's one thing if you don't watch it, then I guess you the jury is the next best thing. What is their opinion? Juries tend to be reasonable, but read the filings. Re watch the witnesses.

1:53:53 · What are you going to You're going to let someone else make up your mind for you. That's like having someone else tell you who should be president. Yeah. Well, I I I didn't vote for this president, but that's who the majority says, so that's who it should be. Um uh it's um those comments are it's it's just a copout. It's it's a way to not address the elephant in the room.

1:54:17 · Would you ever be a lawyer? Like, would you ever become one?

1:54:22 · Never.

1:54:22 · Never. [laughter] Never. I feel the system is too broken and I'm too old. I I think if I were younger and I had more energy and I hope our law our law clerks who we were so blessed to have um which was a brainchild of Alan Jackson's before the first trial like I I'm running out of money. I've got a house and then I'm I'm out and then I just have to hope the charity of others gets me there. And he said, "Well, I've got an idea. Um let's see if there's any law students. You got the the best universities up here.

1:54:52 · Let's see if any Yeah.

1:54:55 · thirdyear law students want to help."

1:54:57 · And we just got a rush. David went to BC Law, Allan [snorts] went to Harvard, and we had a week of interviews, Zooms. David and I interviewed, each law school sent out uh a wanted email.

1:55:11 · Wow.

1:55:11 · David and I did the BC interviews. Alan and Liza did the Harvard and we probably did about 40 and that was all we could we could have taken more. Probably did 40 each. Um, and we each picked our favorites and then I think we each then we we kind of convened on the others and my pick so I interviewed the Harvard uh the the BC. My number one pick from the jump was Evan Wal who who ended up working on the trial the most for us.

1:55:39 · They were all great. And then towards the end of trial, Evan had a contract to work at a big firm in the Seaport. And I said, "I would love for you to go work with Allan." Like, cuz he just admired he and Allan got on and Liza, the three of them, like there was a real Allan and Liza have a great complimentary dynamic.

1:55:57 · And Evan just fit right in. And I I kind of engineered it. I' I've talked to Evan privately and then I would talk to Allan. And now Evan's Evan's with Allen.

1:56:07 · Um [snorts] Allan and Liza interviewed the Harvard students and we ended up choosing four or five. Among them was the editor of the Harvard Law Reviewview. She's no longer she's graduated, but Sophia Hunt. She was kind of our our leader of the interns, like the conduit between the interns and Liza who was managing the interns.

1:56:26 · We could not have done what we did in the second trial with a whole new prosecution, new witnesses trying to keep out that the Voaders and the Dobert hearings, which we did not have the first trial. Um, it took us 3 days to get Dr. Russell qualified to testify in trial two. This is after she's already testified in trial one. I had to fly her up here for three days of hearings. Same with ARCA. I I can't remember if we had Devo Voadier uh or or Dber um uh Dr.

1:56:59 · La Pasada, but every witness that Brennan could challenge, every expert he did. Um and we could never have handled that. We did not have the bandwidth without these law students. I mean, they they would sleep at the hotel on couches in our rooms. They'd wear the same suits the next day.

1:57:19 · I mean, they were indehaticable [music] and um just a a a total total life lifesaver. They become the [music] like like family to us. They helped save my life and I I didn't know them one minute and and hopefully, you know, I know them forever now.

1:57:36 · Did you guys have a group chat?

1:57:38 · We did. We called it the um I don't know if you heard the name for the ARCA witnesses. They were crash daddy.

1:57:46 · Crash Daddies. Our group name for the third-year law students was Crash Grdies.

1:57:50 · Oh my god, that's so good.

1:57:52 · Yeah.

1:57:53 · Oh, cuz they all graduated uh and and one of our interns was getting married, graduating, and moving to Chicago to start her job all within like 2 weeks. So, they were all one uh Sophie who's I is like a little more like a daughter to me, I guess, but I treat her like a little sister. She hasn't graduated yet, but the other eight have all graduated.

1:58:13 · So, our group thread um that li I think it's me with the eight of them or the nine of them was Crash Gratties.

1:58:19 · That's [music] so good. Speaking of, have you seen the clip where it appears that Auntie Bev it appears from social opinion that she's checking out Crash Daddy?

1:58:36 · [music] [laughter] Have you seen Show you later? Okay.

1:58:40 · I' I've seen that. Um, I've It's played in slow motion, which anything in slow motion, that's how you get exhibit A is [laughter] is pausing things at the wrong time. She seems too self-conscious of a woman to have done that knowing she was on camera. But what you're referring to, I have seen.

1:58:59 · You're going to stay in Massachusetts forever.

1:59:01 · No. God, I hope I don't have to stay much longer in Massachusetts.

1:59:06 · Where do you want to live?

1:59:07 · Anywhere but Massachusetts. [laughter] 49 other states.

1:59:10 · Yeah.

1:59:10 · Anywhere. Um I I could be in the middle of the woods. I could be on a farm. I could be on the water. I don't care. I care who I'm with.

1:59:19 · Um I I don't want to see another Massachusetts state trooper. I don't care if they're reformed or under a different a different colonel. I have taken too many shots at law enforcement to feel protected by law enforcement.

1:59:35 · Although we have had many positive experiences, I I hope law enforcement that supports me or at least believes me in Massachusetts understands what has happened to me at the hands of law enforcement and why I feel the way I do. My grandfather, my mother's father was a police officer. Obviously, John was a police officer.

2:00:00 · I am not anti-law enforcement, but I have had many, many members of law enforcement um abuse my rights and lie. Um, and that's as far as I'll go and I can prove that they have lied. I hope law the good law enforcement knows why I feel the way I do, but I don't feel safe in Massachusetts. I don't feel that the politics are safe.

2:00:30 · It's not that those problems don't exist everywhere else, but um I don't want to be a lawyer. I don't want to see any more of the law. Um I I I will try to ch make change in other ways, but uh the the legal system just feels so broken. I look at my lawyers and I just think, why what made you go into this? You're just such an underdog. Mhm.

2:00:57 · You're battling the resources of the state sometimes with a defendant that can't even make bail and then how do you hire the the crash the crash daddies and [laughter] La Pasada and Dr. Russell um and the government can go with a blank check to Aperture and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars and pay a special prosecutor hundreds of thousands of dollars. You want to make change but not get into law. Where where do you see yourself like in 5 years?

2:01:28 · Where would you hope your life to be?

2:01:34 · I hope within 5 years we've written the book which I think will take yes longer. I I I'm not even I can get there if I have to, but I'm not even in the headsp space to start regurgitating and reliving all this. I I would and I I need the money. So, I'm I'll I'll do it when I have to start doing it. But, um I I think the easiest thing I can do is just keep telling the story.

2:02:03 · There are so many facets to this that the public doesn't know just because there hasn't been and this is my first real interview. There's so much of what is entailed in this fight that you know more about this case than average be partly because it's played out twice and it's about to be played out in a different form a third time. But what it takes to mount a defense to even stay somewhat competitive to the to the prosecution.

2:02:33 · I think the details, the financial costs, the sweat equity, what these lawyers have to sacrifice, it's amazing anyone's acquitted. It It really amazes me. And my case was easy to prove. My case was logical. Yeah.

2:02:51 · If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

2:02:54 · And we still were met with just such a fight from the government that I've paid taxes to. and they they threw everything at me that they could and didn't come close. Um I I think the public needs to know they need to be more careful. They need to know their rights. They need to know not ever to speak to law enforcement. Unfortunately, we can't cooperate the way we would think we need to because if if if god forbid this goes south, it will be used against you in a court of law.

2:03:27 · It will be it will be manipulated against you in a in a court of law. It will be taken out of context against you in a court of law. You know, we're trying to put together this this YouTube channel, Allan and I. Um and I read a couple comments like I'm I'm done hearing from Karen. What is what does she have to I I can tell you what it's like to be a defendant and I can tell you what it takes to beat the system. It's a lot more than what you think.

2:03:53 · I've lived now six months, three continuous at a time with my with my defense team, with ancillary members of the defense team, with law students. We had a a documentary crew with us at one point.

2:04:10 · Um, it's emotional and trying and exhausting and there's a lot of choreography and personal management, I'll call it, to walk into court looking how we looked every day and to be cohesive. And I I had three men in their 60s from three different firms, very seasoned in their careers, all having spent time as as uh prosecutors.

2:04:40 · Um and then that Liza made partner along the way, also experienced with her own opinions. We don't just show up and put Kelly Dver on the stand.

2:04:54 · Um, everyone has their own experience and therefore their own strategy and their own way of doing things and they all fall on me to break the tie. It's very very trying. It's why I feel this crash from trial because it wasn't just sitting there and trying to keep my emotions in check, which sometimes I didn't do a very good job of it. It was what was happening. Honestly, trial sitting there was oftentimes easier than having to go home.

2:05:26 · The worst nights, the worst moments of trial at times were Monday and Tuesday nights where we just had a grueling day at court and some big witness is coming on Thursday or or worse, we think a big witness is coming Thursday, but Brennan hasn't finalized the batting order yet. So, it could be the children are testifying on Thursday or it could be um Bcnik or it could be Tully, one of the four. I mean, that's how it goes.

2:05:58 · That's the dirty pool that's happening is we are finding out sometimes within one day's notice who was going to testify. We were told that te um now I can't remember her name. The uh dog DNA expert from UCAL Berkeley, she was on the witness list. We were told every Friday when the judge would call us up at Sidebar and say, "What are the plans? Who's coming up next?" We were told every Friday, "She's coming.

2:06:27 · She should be coming this week. We're trying to make travel arrangements. She should be coming." She never came. Um, and we have our own we have our own opinions about about why she didn't testify. But it wasn't as if we had this road map of trial and we had some time to plan. We, for example, did not know if we could call ARCA until trial had already started.

2:06:49 · So, Judge Canon told Allen the morning of opening statements in trial 2 that she had not made up her mind about ARCA and he was therefore disallowed from mentioning ARCA in his opening statements. So, that meant Hank Brennan presented his case and you're going to hear from Aperture, ladies and gentlemen. And two PhDs Oh, well that's right. Shannon Bird just lied about his degrees.

2:07:17 · One PhD is going to tell you that that car backed up at uh 24 mph, 62 ft, and it spun him around like a top and he fell and cracked his head open. Then we get up to give opening statements and we've got the federally contracted ARCA PhDs who've done all this work and we and we've had them now for a year [snorts] and we can't mention them. So, if jurors were paying attention, they'd say, "Well, wait a minute.

2:07:48 · So, the prosecution has a physical reconstructionist who's going to tell us that car damaged that body and that body damaged that car, but Reed doesn't have what? Why? They can't prove it." So, they go into trial thinking, "I don't think Reed can physically prove that this didn't happen." This is Canon handicapping us. So, she said to Allan the morning of opening, "You have 10 minutes. I have not ruled on ARCA. And Allan said, your honor, it's in my opening statement.

2:08:19 · I can't not talk about the they're arguably our two most important witnesses. And she said, you have 10 minutes to sit at the table and edit your opening.

2:08:31 · And she gave him exactly that. I've never seen Allan, and I've seen him in different states of of pressure. This was unspeakable what she was putting him through. And he is so choreographed and fidious and meticulous and everything flows. It's not a stream of consciousness. It's something he's worked and massaged and and he reiterates themes as he goes through. He didn't just talk about Arca once. He introduced them in the beginning. There was no collision. There was no collision there.

2:09:02 · There was no collision with John O'Keefe.

2:09:07 · There was no collision. There was no collision. There was no collision. There was no collision. There was no collision.

2:09:23 · And and then he he he goes into detail throughout that all had to be excised and still flow. These are these are fights that we were made to endure that we shouldn't have that and it was something like this multiple times a day of of this magnitude. So I think long long answer to your question about the next 5 years I even just for therapeutic reasons I I want people who care to know to know everything that happened.

2:09:58 · You're still fighting. So, you had the two trials, but now there's a civil fight. There's multiple civil fights.

2:10:04 · How much is that going to cost?

2:10:07 · My biggest expense is logistics. The amount of work required is just so vast. I mean, it took three different firms, Yiani, DA Piper, where Bob was from, and Worksman Jackson for two trials. We didn't even make it through the first time around. and we had to do it again. And now I currently have three civil trials happening. I have the O'Keefe wrongful death suit in Plymouth County, Massachusetts.

2:10:35 · I have my suit against Canton PD and Massachusetts State Police in Bristol County, Massachusetts, both state. And now I have the federal um with the Alberts, McCabes, Higgins, Proctor, Tully, and Buchnik. So that's three. Um Allan is still one of my attorneys. I am not currently compensating Allan, but I do pay for all the travel and logistics.

2:11:03 · I have paid modestly so far, she and Finny. Um, but the amount of work they've done on a billable hour rate is is already astronomical. I mean, they're doing something robust for my case as I sit here right now. Um, they're amazing and there's three of them and they're they're they're all just like Allan Allen's firm. They're all complimentary. They work together for a reason because they're good together. The worst is over.

2:11:35 · Uh, I am used to fighting now. If any party to this thinks this is inflicting pain on me, um, you don't understand what I've been through and what I've survived and what I can handle and you don't understand what's what's going on and what what more is about to be revealed. I mean, we were hamstrung in our opinion badly at trial. There's more evidence and there's more of a story to tell.

2:12:10 · [music] Um, and it has to be done. We have to finish this. It's why Allan is still involved. It's why Damon, who was he was my parents attorney throughout the last year, but it's it's why Damon wants to be a part of this civil suit as well. But we have a lot we have a lot more to do. And um, luckily, we know we know this case so well. So many of us know it so well. It's just a matter of understanding civil law and how this all has to play out.

2:12:41 · And it's even more tedious than than than the criminal court.

2:12:45 · Yeah.

2:12:46 · And I know you have a civil fund setup.

2:12:48 · [music] I'm going to leave that in the description for people to support. I think it's interesting because there is kind of this narrative that like you got a book deal, you have all this money from the documentary, which we're finding out is not true. Um you sold your house. We do know that's true. You lost years of your life that you could have been working. You lost your careers. You used up your savings. You cashed out on your retirement.

2:13:14 · You sold your treadmill.

2:13:16 · I did sell Who said that?

2:13:18 · It was in an interview.

2:13:19 · Did I say that?

2:13:20 · Yeah.

2:13:20 · Oh, I didn't see that. I did sell my treadmill. Um I my I think I gave it to my neighbor.

2:13:26 · Did my neighbor take my treadmill?

2:13:28 · Yeah, I sold it to my neighbor. Um my neighbors were were lovely. Um they're a young family and they had a baby in the middle of all this. It was funny because um I would not like a creep but I I would watch them out the window. My bedroom faced their house and I would hear the little baby that was born I want to say and their baby was born in the winter of 2022.

2:13:51 · I would hear the baby outside and think what a juxiposition that I'm going through this in this house and they're and they're so lovely. my neighbors, my old neighbors, [music] and they're starting this family. And when they bought the house, I don't even think they were married yet. And they're they're growing and the the firstborn's getting bigger. And it didn't make me sad. It was like life is always starting fresh and life is it's not always happy.

2:14:17 · It won't always be happy for them, but it is there are always there's always another moment of happiness, even if there's there's tragedy in it. But um um yeah, I've I have not made anything. Um [music] not not a dime. I don't have a movie. I don't have a book. When I do, you'll know. Um and there are there are obstacles even to that. a book.

2:14:40 · I I my understanding is we if we are authors, we could be given some some to write the book almost as if we were taking a sbatical to write this book. [music] With a movie, what I'm learning is someone like me who would be selling her life rights for the movie, I wouldn't really be able to monetize that until the movie is actually in production. that my rights are actually it's like a stock option.

2:15:11 · They're they're actually going to be the rights will actually be exercised.

2:15:15 · So, no, I live I love my parents. Um but I I don't know that the three of us need to live together until the end of time.

2:15:24 · I'd love to live with them [laughter] in a bigger house with where we can spread out. Um, but no, obviously if I were making millions or even hundreds of thousands of dollars. Um, a ask the people who live on Country Hill Drive in North Don. Uh, that's that's where I live and I'm lucky I have them and I feel safe and I'm getting I'm lucky I can enjoy my parents at this age and we don't have this trial over our heads anymore. But no, I'd like to be I'd like to be doing things. I'd like to regain some more [music] strength physically.

2:15:58 · I'd like to I don't know that I like to travel right now, but I'd like to be somewhere with the people I love. And I haven't been able to because I don't have the resources. I have had some very generous people um help me in small ways and not so small ways celebrate.

2:16:20 · I've had people open their homes to me and uh and my family and really enjoy enjoy life for for a few moments. People that owed me nothing and um uh I' I've gotten a lot of offers I haven't taken, but um and I've got a lot of work to do. So, wherever I go, I can't really just unplug, but I don't I haven't made any money. I haven't made any. Um, if you can find an example, if someone has a receipt, by all means, and I'll I'll answer to it.

2:16:52 · They can send it to you and and I will answer to that.

2:16:57 · Speaking of money in movies, you're not making any money from the Amazon Prime movie with Elizabeth Banks. Is it Amazon Prime?

2:17:05 · Elizabeth Banks I thought was Hulu. That I have nothing to do with that.

2:17:11 · Okay. And the So, I am not making any money. I will not be making any money from that.

2:17:15 · The new Lifetime movie. So, I just heard about that yesterday. I refreshed my news feed and I saw the announcement from Lifetime and it's funny. Um, the actress I I actually saw a still.

2:17:29 · Apparently, this is done. They they've filmed this and it's coming out in January is I think what I read. It's on their docket for January. And the actress Katie Cassidy, her father David Cassidy, he was on a show in the 70s called The Partridge Family and it was a band. Have you heard of the Partridge Family? It was like in the Brady Bunch era.

2:17:50 · Um like Bell Bottoms and kind of poppy catchy music and it was they were a band and they they also had a TV show and he was like a teenage heartthrob they they used to call him and he had a brother I think a half brother Sean Cassidy who was also in a band in the late '7s.

2:18:08 · They were in a Broadway play where they played brothers separated at birth and one went one side of the tracks and one went the other in London and they reconnected unbeknownst to them and became best friends and then found out they were actual brothers and it was an amazing musical. It was in 1995 that I saw this play with my family and David Cassidy was a star and I was talking to my dad last night and I said who would have thought I was 15 in 1995.

2:18:36 · Who would have thought that we're in this little it's called the Music Box Theater right off Broadway in in Midtown Manhattan. Who would have thought that that I I guess David Cassidy was maybe in his 40s at the time that his daughter would play me [laughter] in a movie. Um so I feel some kinship. I've seen her in a remake of Nightmare on Elm Street. That is the best version um I've seen of [laughter] that movie.

2:19:04 · If you're into horror movies, it's good.

2:19:06 · that that's all I know about I have nothing. I didn't even know it was happening. I will not be seeing any I'd like if they want to send me some money, I'll gladly take it, but I I didn't know anything about you hear that lifetime. [laughter] If if this is getting the story out, um get get it out. It's compelling. It's a moment in in history. I don't blame these people for making these movies, but I will say I have gone through a lot of pain and lost a lot.

2:19:32 · And you're telling my story to make money and you're not involving me. How much will people take on my coattails and not show any economical appreciation? So, I wish these people luck in their endeavors, but um I I hope they know what I've lost for them to tell this story.

2:20:02 · Yeah.

2:20:03 · I know that you guys are working on the YouTube show, but if we were to end it on a lighter note, if I were to summon you with a magical spell, you have to pick five things or objects that speak to you, what would you pick?

2:20:18 · Five things or objects that speak to me.

2:20:22 · Mhm.

2:20:22 · Well, one easy one would be rosary beads. I'm religious. I don't pray as much as I should pray. I should be praying many times a day and I do not.

2:20:34 · But when [music] I was in jail both times, I prayed the rosary without my rosary beads over and over. I actually used it to help myself keep time because I know it takes me 15 minutes. [music] I have many. I have a friend who actually gave me rosary beads that were made with yellow roses that were on John's casket [music] cuz I was not at John's funeral, but she grabbed a handful of petals and made me rosary beads. So, those are very precious to me.

2:21:00 · I had someone um this is something that was just recently. It's not in my possession, but it means something to me, and I'd like to get my own copy. Allan had a renowned uh courtroom artist in Los Angeles. I believe she's retired now. She just goes by the first name Mona. She did a courtroom sketch. Um, which is fascinating. It's like looks like a mix of watercolor and like [music] pencil.

2:21:26 · And it's Allen in in great detail. It's very small. It's Allen. My parents are behind him.

2:21:33 · Jen McCabe, Brian Albert, and Colin Albert. It's during closing argument are in are in the O'Keefe's gallery. And I'm turning around looking at Allen. And it was amazing. Um, I asked Alan if we can please commission her to do one that that I can keep. I've gotten like so many photos. There's a photo uh that someone took in the courtroom. There's two. It's not really the photo, but it's that moment that I would never remember with the clarity without the photo, but there's several of me kissing my dad that they're just perfect. And then there's one um hugging my parents.

2:22:04 · Uh, I I know a gentleman named Greg Durr. Um, D RR is a photographer. I think he's just part of the Associated Press or he works for the Boston Globe, but he's really commemorated some amazing moments. But there's one where I'm hugging my parents after the verdict and I I my hair is kind of pulled tight and I've got my and I my fists are like this and I'm hugging and I just know exactly I know exactly how I felt. There's a couple photos of my dad and me.

2:22:34 · I don't even I kissed him every day and my mom so I I don't remember specific that moment, but hugging them after the verdict. I remember. Um other than that, there aren't there aren't many objects that mean much to me. I've I've learned [music] to become more transient, less

2:22:54 · sentimental through this process because [music] I mean I had a a house that was big for me that I filled with things that I collected and are and luckily I gave a lot of it to a cousin of mine who I know is going to look after it and I I actually hope he keeps it all cuz I I love him. But um I'm not too attached really to anything [music] physically anymore. Um, when your freedom is on the line, none of this material stuff you you could lose it all and it all has a monetary value.

2:23:25 · Um, my my treadmill had a granted it was not used very much, [laughter] but but none of it means anything. So, I I don't have too many objects. There's photos. I don't even know if those count, but um I don't have too many physical objects that that mean all that that much to me. [music] No, but those are like the best ones.

2:23:45 · the ones you just said. I really hope, don't listen to those people. I really hope that we hear a lot more from you talking about your own case yourself. Um, we're going to look forward to the YouTube show. I think it's going to hopefully come out around the time this comes out. Hopefully, we are going to be having um a YouTube channel launch hopefully in January 2026. The Read Files. The Read Files.

2:24:07 · The Read Files.

2:24:09 · That'll be Alan Jackson. Uh Nick Roco is going to host and and and I'll be there on the Reed.

2:24:15 · [music] Okay.

2:24:17 · And that's a wrap. [music]

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Raw Blame History